Get Outa My Life, Jesus Christ! [Archive]

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Crane

Sat Nov 15 2008, 10:01am

In recent posts on Abe Talk, I've read a comment about when "...Jesus walked this earth..." and others referring to some fuzzy concept called Christ Consciousness. While things like this are usually posted by people who know little about history and haven't gotten it with Abraham, I thought it might be helpful to go on record on this subject.

First, although the overwhelmingly ignorant population of the world does not know this simple fact, there is not one scintilla of evidence that Jesus even existed. There is no birth or death record. There is not even anything in the Roman chronicles of Pontius Pilate (a real person) that registers the claimed death notice. There is nothing on the record about his having been resurrected, although the Bible claims this was witnesses by many, including Roman guards. Funny that nobody jotted this extraordinary experience down. Hm....

Unlike other contemporary or preceding religious figures, like Confucius, Lao-Tse, Buddha, there is not a single existing record of anything Jesus wrote. Was he illiterate or just didn't exist? Was he a creation of the Christian diaspora that flowed out of the Middle East in his name, a fabulous invention grown more fabulous as the demands for conversion grew? Sure, there are writings attributed to Jesus, but none of these got written down for at least 50 years after his supposed death and many contract each other. Maybe the son of god was confused. Hm...

Biblical stories that have gained general acceptance maintain that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, even though his mother was married. The only people who might be made happy by this claim are those still clinging to the old Christian tradition of belief that there is something wrong with female sexuality. Otherwise, the virgin birth has no value. It's just a badly dysfunctional family. Welcome aboard, misogynists!

Whole New Age phonies make all sorts of claims about Christ consciousness, nothing on the record suggests that Jesus meditated or suggested anyone do anything more supernatural than ask God for something. Throughout his life, Jesus remained a devout Jew, never left the faith, objected only to those not devout enough, like the money changers. This means he endorsed such charming concepts of the time as killing your own children for talking back, stoning adulterers to death in public, and the mass murder of civilians in the name of God. Christianity was invented long after his alleged crucifixion and was, until endorsed by the Roman Empire in the 4th Century AD, simply another Jewish sect. Of course, once endorsed by the Roman power structure, the Christians did what most men and women in power do, they began discriminating against and killing others.

But don't fret, LOA with any though involved others, they felt happy doing it.

Dance of Joy

Sat Nov 15 2008, 10:04am

What I do know is that the Love that 'he' embodied is real and alive in me... when I blend with Source. And that is a freaking beautiful thing. I aspire to live my entire life like that. And since I can be, do or have anything I want, I know I will. :heart:

Wow, my thanks, Dave. I got to this incredible buzzing place of love this morning thanks to this thread. YAY!

Dance of Joy

Sat Nov 15 2008, 10:18am

My appreciation for you, Chris, and for Dave (Crane) is immense this morning! Your threads have brought me incredible clarity on what I am wanting and what I believe to be possible. I am soaring, and I love you both for your part in that. :heart: :hug: :grouphug: :heart:

Jen415

Sat Nov 15 2008, 10:44am

Crane

Sat Nov 15 2008, 10:52am

cigi

Sat Nov 15 2008, 11:21am

I like Jesus. He's the best abusive leader I've ever had. I especially love that part where he says we all have free will but if we don't do what he says, he'll banish us to a pit of fiery torture for all of eternity.

Now THAT's unconditional love. Talk about your fluffy bunnies! Ya just cant get better than that, unless you live in a trailer with your boyfriend Bubba who beats the shit outta you for not having his dinner ready on time. Oh yeah, Christ Consciousness in a dirty tee-shirt. Dead sexy.

Lots of people need a leader, a martyr, a judge or a middle-man (read: IB).

Dave, you should seriously look into getting "saved."

FBK indeed.

Mariposa

Sat Nov 15 2008, 11:50am

yeah, and what's so great about something being REAL? is something real better that something that hasn't been proved to be real? :silent: what does ''real'' mean anyway? how can something not be real? and to whom? sometimes I feel nothing is real... or anything can be real if I allow it to be... :drum:

:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

Ahnalira

Sat Nov 15 2008, 4:31pm

In Jungian terms, Jesus represents an 'archetype' ... or a cluster of qualities bigger than Life that people resonate with or don't resonate with depending upon their values. The quality of 'belief' is what actually grows the archetype to propotions of Godhood.. When a large enough group of people give credence to archetype, a Collective Consciousness forms that has momentum and power to create... In Jungian terms.

The same can be said of scientific theory, I think. We have such a large group of people believing disease comes from germs - that it does :wink2: As another example.

So, I read the underlying question, Dave, not to be so much about Jesus as it is, "How do we support the world around us to rise up from the herd mentality of Collective Consciousness and be present in the moment of their own ability to process information and make decisions?"

Would this be an accurate understanding of your meaning? :joylick:

If it is, then I say: Abraham gives an interesting answer to this question. One person aligned in a set point of well being and focused with intent towards a vision is more powerful than any group - no matter how big - whose clarity is contradicted for any reason. So then, the answer to your question from where I sit is be that clarity in your Life, and it will radiate from you influencing everyone who comes in your sphere.

Crane

Sat Nov 15 2008, 6:02pm

Welcome to the game, 11:11.

Takes out his electric-prod and starts pocking Crane

So Crane, how do you feel about -- UFOs Since UFO means Unidentified Flying Object, they certainly exist, but what they actually are is an open question that people make unwarranted assumptions about. If, for example, exterrestrials have been around for so long, what do they want? Why is there no record of their helping in any way, of providing "relief," to bring up the term I keep seeing tossed loosely around. (So, it you're already and always happy, what relief do you need? But that's another subject.) But certainly they way they are invoked as being needed to make things better on earth certainly suggests lack. Who needs the help? I thought Abraham said nothing was broken or needed to be fixed., and The Galactic Federation? Not a clue, never paid any attention to it. Sounds like science fiction.

How do you feel about the tiny fairies and energy orbs some of our members see flying around their gardens, and what about the little gnomes running around in the bushes?Hard to imagine what the point would be. Like, so what? Are the other dimensions that most and some that none of us see? Probably. Are they populated by space bunnies and gnomes? Probably not.

How do you feel about... seeing colored auroras around people?I've known people who say they can. I wish I could. It would probably mean having the rare ability to read the electromagnetic field that surrounds everyone. It ain't magic. It's a gift.

lol :lol: Co-creating was intended as a way to overflow your joy to others, so they can mirror and amplify that joy back at you. Here, I'll disagree. Co-creating is mutually creating something. The quality you mention is great, but it isn't co-creating. Mass consciousness, similarly, is something we join in. The idea of total independence from history or the present around us is a fantasy. It's also impossible. I can explain in detail, if you like. It was never intended to be used for control. And in fact, when you use co-creation as an idea for control, you are getting out of alignment -- then you are pushing the belief that others create in my reality. And that completely contradicts the law of attraction. And I'd agree if that is what I said. It isn't. Co-creating is mutually an voluntary. We spend the majority of our lives doing it. Totally independent action almost never occurs. It's a self-indulgent illusion. Ciao for now. Gotta go enjoy Saturday evening.

Ahnalira

Sat Nov 15 2008, 10:21pm

Adal, thank you! I LOVE The Little Prince.... especially this dialogue :clap:

Blissful Creator

Sun Nov 16 2008, 12:29am

LOL, I just rented and watched the movie (from the 1970's i think) "The Little Prince." It was an odd movie, especially that fox scene where the guy who played Willy Wonka pretended to be the Prince's pet, lol. I read the book many years ago and remember liking it.

I personally love Jesus Christ. I say his name often every day, like "Jesus Christ! where'd I put my keys?!" rofl I was raised Jewish so it's a relief for me every time I can say his name and not be afraid the "real" God will disapprove. Lol.

Crane

Sun Nov 16 2008, 2:54am

And I'd agree if that is what I said. It isn't.

So what were you going on about when you said...

...and I'd like the chicken shits to drop the fuzzy nonsense and get in the game. We can use the contributions.

'We can use the contributions' -- like, you rely on others to create in your reality, because without them what you want cannot happen?

11:11, do you routinely see (or read) things that aren't there?

The big picture goes like this....

We are all connected. There is no other way. According to Abraham, and I agree, the question is one of the level of connectedness to all that is. We are connected to each other as well as the non-physical others, plants, animals, stars and everything else in the universe.

Everything we do, think or feel affects everything else. In no moment do we participate in a vacuum. The switch is always ON. It's like ripples on a pond, extending and extending to end of everything. You may even think they stop at the shore. They don't. The ripples push the physical shore and influence it.

In the purest sense, I'll agree that you can create whatever you want, but since you live in the context of the real world, you never want so much beyond the conditions already in place, those you inherited as a legacy as well as those, piece by piece, along the way. No human ever started with a blank slate. No human ever entered an environment that didn't already exist.

Our recognized senses are electromagnetic receptors that convey vibrations to our brains. Our brains in turn create conscious images of vision, smell, touch, sound, etc. That's the equipment you've got. An amazing additional quality of the mind is that it is capable of imagining alternative concepts and attempting to create within them. Art, music and architecture of examples of this process at work. Another amazing quality is the plasticity of the human mind is that it can, through exercise, like meditation and practiced observation, learn to "see" better, i.e., make more out of what it gets fed.

Consciousness is the process in which we observe our minds doing these things, of, in essence, living a human life. An integral part of observing is making judgments. Although we seem to tag all sorts of negative connotations to the word, it's something all of us do all the time. We decide which band we like and which we don't. That's judgment. We decide how best to spend our time. Also, judgment.

Given all this–and you can disagree that this is what happens, but it's the commonly accepted concept–doesn't it make sense to do the best with our lives that our minds can help us do? And, given that we are all in it together as thinking, feeling individuals, isn't it logical to think about how much better it would be for all of us if there was more connectedness in the community and more intensity in our creations?

I'm going to encourage more connectedness, which is something Abraham does, and I'm going to recognize it when I see and also when I don't see it. Disagreement and discussion is fine, but if you're making a case for disconnectedness, I'd like to see it presented in detail, not just with slogans dragged out of context. That's weak. Make your case, if you've got one.

Crane

Sun Nov 16 2008, 2:45pm

Alex, I agree with you on everything in your very thoughtful post, except this.[size=200]

Crane, do your judgements of others as disconnected feel connected to you?

I don't have any. I was making a note about what Abraham has said. I hope everyone's as connected to source and as happy as I am. Abraham says there are degrees, and if there weren't, I suppose there would be no point in personal expansion.

But this was a great post. Many people read the posts without commenting, and some of them are just guests. You post something really thoughtful, it informs many who you may never hear from. Good for you! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Crane

Sun Nov 16 2008, 3:09pm

Given all this–and you can disagree that this is what happens, but it's the commonly accepted concept–doesn't it make sense to do the best with our lives that our minds can help us do? And, given that we are all in it together as thinking, feeling individuals, isn't it logical to think about how much better it would be for all of us if there was more connectedness in the community and more intensity in our creations?

I don't understand you. When you talk about "the best with our lives", I get the impression you're talking about a feathered-nest with no war, no disease, no hunger, etc. And then you look at us Kool-aid drinking sheep, and you think -- "Boy, if we didn't have these Kool-aid drinking sheep, we would be so much farther than where we are today. Our world would be far better without them. Our technology would be progressed, we would have heaven on earth, etc."

So Crane, what do you want, and what is the vision that you hold?

Great question, 11:11, and I'll ask your patience until I have more time to answer fully. I can't give your question the time and attention it deserves right now, but I definitely will later on.

Jen415

Mon Nov 17 2008, 8:10am

Dave I love you...but I have two words for you (okay three):

SO.....FUCKING.....WHAT???

For some folk, just the possibility that he was real is enough. I know for your concrete-thinking mind it is not, and that is fine. But those of us who do believe, regardless of "evidence", feel GOOD about it.

Whether he is real or fictional matters not to me. I embrace this particular "fuzzy concept".

Live and let live.

:heart: Jen :heart:

Jen, I appreciate your thought, and I once felt that way. Then, I read some books by Esther and Jerry Hicks about a teacher called Abraham. He keeps mentioning Mass Consciousness and co-creating, and I realized we are all in it together, and I'd like the chicken shits to drop the fuzzy nonsense and get in the game. We can use the contributions.

I agree, but they've got their own game(s) going....most of them are not interested in any new thoughts about Christ at all. They are so safe with the Jesus they have been raised with that anything different is too scary.

That being said, I have to believe that at least SOME parts of their brand of "Christ Consciousness" blend with mine and with others in the Universe. IMO, there's no way it can be 100% "them vs. us".

:heart: Jen :heart:

Crane

Mon Nov 17 2008, 9:30am

Right fucking on, 11:11! Right on! :clap:

Crane

Mon Nov 17 2008, 3:14pm

Adal,you're a nice guy, which may not always be the great attribute it's put up to be. It's almost hard to know where to start in considering how off you are in this post.
In one tape also from Abraham, Abraham said Jesus is here with the gang, implicating that Jesus Energy and personality was part of that of Abrahams.
To be perfectly honest with you, I heard that same response and believed Abraham was trying to gently tell listeners to get off the Christ thing, like, yeah, he's dead as we are and nobody special. The only question I had there was whether he ever really existed as the fabled character in the scriptures.

If Crane does believe Abraham is a non physical entity being channeled by Esther, which say Jesus is one of them, then why the push against Jesus?
So, help me here–how is saying "not in my pie" pushing against? If so, should we not discriminate at all, just let it in and all hang out?

I previously thought you had a pretty good grasp on the teachings. This suggests you've missed some subtle points or can you actually clarify why saying "not in my pie" is actually pushing against? I'm all ears.

I love Jesus Energy, since all what Jesus said is Abraham like.

Oh, boy, how you don't get it. First of all, there is no such thing as Jesus Energy. You made it up or borrowed it from someone else who did.

Either you don't actually know what his followers claim Jesus said some fifty years after he died, if he existed at all, let me point out some salient points that directly contradict what we're taught by Abraham.

1. Endedness is a Christian tenet. The world ends. Abe says it doesn't.
2. There are good and bad people, and guess who decides? Not you in your everyday life, but God as interpreted by priests, rabbis, etc.
3. Some people live forever; others don't. This is Abraham-like to you? How?
4. Misogyny. Judaism, even as practiced today has a real problem with women's equality, especially those who are not subordinate to men. In some current traditions, they are considered "dirty" when and simply because they menstruate. Jesus was a lifelong Jew in a tradition that was much more strict than it is today.
4a. Some other tenets of the faith he never renounced or spoke against (meaning, he had no objection): mass murder of civilian populations, stoning to death of female adulterers, the execution of rebellious children, capital punishment for working on the sabbath. Please enlighten me as to how these are Abe-like?

Everything else is religious manipulation.

Abraham, Jesus, Buddha, ala, what difference does it make?
Well, we could start with Buddha being a verifiable historical figure and Jesus not being verifiable at all. If you're talking about the biblical Abraham, there is also no record. Now Confucius, Lao-tse, there you've got some recorded history.

All they said is we are "Sons of God" meaning... This is simply not an accurate statement. This was attributed to Jesus only and it was a power play tactic by his followers.we are Source Energy! And does it then follow that all are the same and there is no discrimination at all. We just pack it all in our pie, just because we came from source energy?

That's the trouble with fuzzy bunnies. You want it all to be bright and beautiful. It isn't. Source assigned you a brain to help you tell what is and what is not good for you personal expansion. Try the starter button.

Anything else, as Jen said... so fucking what?
Jesus (you'll excuse the expression), don't you even think it's important what flag you fly, what you stand for, what you say and do?

That, sir, it so fucking what. Your actions matter. If you're waving the Jesus flag, try to tune into all that symbolizes. If you find it consistent with Abraham's teachings, go back and read the book.

just sayin-

Crane

Mon Nov 17 2008, 3:47pm

[attachment=0:ex3ijdju]images.jpeg[/attachment:ex3ijdju]NOW.

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, know that I already sent that picture to Crane by regular email and he loved it and is not offended and it was not intended as mean, but as FUNNY. Okay?

And here's one I sent Sierra.

Crane

Mon Nov 17 2008, 4:07pm

Ahnalira

Mon Nov 17 2008, 4:12pm

Do the fluffy bunnies stop anyone from posting how they choose to post? Those are pretty powerful bunnies rofl

cigi

Mon Nov 17 2008, 4:31pm

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, know that I already sent that picture to Crane by regular email and he loved it and is not offended and it was not intended as mean, but as FUNNY. Okay?

and this is the exact reason why it's getting hard to be here ... we have to post disclaimers or get ready for the judgement if we're not doing the fluffy bunny dance. why? why can't we all just allow each other to be exactly who we are? it was the diversity of this place and the intelligence level that drew a lot of us here in the first place...
Exactly right, Beth.

It's been getting, first, like you can only post fluff if you don't want to send some bunnies running and, second, as if nobody gives a shit at all about accuracy of fact, consistency of opinion, and relevance.

Beth's not the first to note that the general air of wasted time and meaningless, fuzzy bunny conversation is driving many to not bother logging in anymore.

Adult discuss. Adults disagree. Adults get emotional without feeling bad about it.

The world needs adults.

Thank you, sweet Beth, for stepping up. :love:

Can I getta AMEN?!?

Oh, no? My bad. rofl

I would just like to point out that several of us continue to be inspired by one another. IN PRIVATE. There wasn't supposed to be rules here. I never signed on to be anyone's "emotional tampon" (credit:Chamber).

I have small children. That's where I invest my patience. (Sound familiar, Dave?) I do NOT baby my contemporaries - no matter who judges me for it. This forum started out as a place to discuss intellectual, philosophical, life-changing, evolving theory. It's been reduced to polite fascism. Only problem there is the fakery & phonyisms poorly covered in ridiculous smilies. Bleh.

Get outta my life, Jesus Christ? I think it would be more appropriate to say - Get Outta My Life, Rabid Aber.

Ahnalira

Mon Nov 17 2008, 4:51pm

stop? fuck no. but honey, the lameness is overwhelming. where's the joy & excitement in it anymore? that's the question of the hour.
I could be missing the vital point you are making... but it seems to me that a forum that promotes free speech promotes all kinds of free speech.

I watched several forums start as offshoots of other forums over the years I've been on the internet, and the ones that start as a reaction to what they didn't like on another forum find their initial momentum (joy and excitement, if you will) by joining against the 'common enemy'. When that falls away - as is inevitable - the group has to discover its common ground based on a new set of shared interests or it just finds someone or something to keep making the 'common enemy' to stay alive... or the forum dies and new forums emerge.

What I wonder is why does someone have to be wrong if the forum doesn't work for you anymore and you want to go to another forum or online community?

Is it possible to really have a free speech forum that allows both 'fuzzy bunnies' and 'adults'? Is it possible to be both, depending upon the topic? And, if it's not... why come back here to announce that some type of poster is making it hard for you to be here? Just move on to what you enjoy more? :wink2:

Crane

Mon Nov 17 2008, 6:02pm

Well, Ahnalira, in my humble perspective, I thought we DID have a forum that allowed both. I myself morph from a fluffy bunny into a sharp shooting wench and everything in between on this forum. I loved the threads that wove the fun, interesting, bitchy, fluffy stuff, that showed the diversity and different perspectives of everyone. But if the fluffy bunnies don't want the sharp shooters, and the sharp shooters don't want the fluffy bunnies, well then no one is allowing, and one side will win out over the other and we have a one sided forum. As Crane and I discussed by email the other day, can't we just agree to disagree and revel and bask in our differences? In the famous words of Rodney King....

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

http://kenoath.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/rking.jpg
Trouble is, when you speak up, only a few people get involved, Sierra, Chamber (rarely), Christy, Beth, and the rest flee to their illusions about understanding what it's all about.

No more vigorous discussion, but more importantly, the inaccurate and misleading glop keeps popping up and the hordes come groveling to play patty-cake and tell each other how wonderful they are when all they really are is out of touch and fuzzy.

Why can't posters be expected to make a case for the stuff they post?

Ans; because the other fluffy bunnies come to the rescue and say it's all just that nasty arguing, boo-hoo-hoo.

I'll say it again, the world needs adults, and it ain't seeing many of them here.

cigi

Mon Nov 17 2008, 7:57pm

stop? fuck no. but honey, the lameness is overwhelming. where's the joy & excitement in it anymore? that's the question of the hour.

Damn! I'm a couple of hours late on this one. Excellent point, Bethy. <bitch-smile> :wink2:

I watched several forums start as offshoots of other forums over the years I've been on the internet, and the ones that start as a reaction to what they didn't like on another forum find their initial momentum (joy and excitement, if you will) by joining against the 'common enemy'. When that falls away - as is inevitable - the group has to discover its common ground based on a new set of shared interests or it just finds someone or something to keep making the 'common enemy' to stay alive... or the forum dies and new forums emerge.

You're absolutely right, Ahnalira. I truly believe this forum became a popular way to escape an overpowering den-mother. But look, we got one anyway.

Why can't posters be expected to make a case for the stuff they post?

Ans; because the other fluffy bunnies come to the rescue and say it's all just that nasty arguing, boo-hoo-hoo.

I'll say it again, the world needs adults, and it ain't seeing many of them here.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here & say that it's because it might upset the delicate constitution of those closer to the Hicks' camp. *sniff*

So we've thrown Abe's basic teachings out the window (allow others, don't push against, All is Well, follow your bliss, search for better feeling thoughts, look for love in everything, seek JOY, BE HAPPY, etc., etc.). Good to know.

Sierra - the basic teachings of Abraham state clearly to follow one's own truth. (Ooops! Maybe that's the basics of Cigi's teachings!) We threw Abe's basic teachings out the window when we rushed to the defense of someone like Stefan. .. Or was it Channellover... or RedHawk? Damn - I can't remember. Can somebody ask that chick he was stalking??

cigi

Mon Nov 17 2008, 7:59pm

Yes, where is it? Create it!! You guys want joy and excitement and stimulating conversation? Create it! Start a thread, start the intelligent, non-fluffy conversations you want to be involved in and LET'S PLAY! I don't see anyone stopping anyone from doing anything here. And I've never known you, Cigi, to give a fuck if you send some fluffy bunnies running. In fact, you bask in that! So if they want to run, run! But don't stop being YOU here and that goes for you too, Bethie Beth! Are there some new rules I don't know about that are driving people away? Cause I wanna follow the sheep train! NOT!!!

100% Right, Sierra. BEAUTIFUL.

Ahnalira

Mon Nov 17 2008, 9:15pm

Trouble is, when you speak up, only a few people get involved, Sierra, Chamber (rarely), Christy, Beth, and the rest flee to their illusions about understanding what it's all about.
I posted on the topic in the thread, Crane, and no one responded to my post. I was 'there' and willing to participate in a conversation that stretches my mind :joylick:

Sierra, I absolutely agree with you from a personal perspective. I am very fluffy AND I enjoy stretching my mind to explore new frontiers with divergent perspectives. I pose the question for those who seem to think the two are mutually exclusive :wink2:

I'm gonna go out on a limb here & say that it's because it might upset the delicate constitution of those closer to the Hicks' camp. *sniff*
I get the impression from this one and the comment about a den mother that you are referring to me? rofl Correct me if I'm mistaken, please.

If I'm reading your veiled comments accurately, then you are saying that I hold quite a bit of power over this forum.. that people are 'afraid' to be themselves around me?

Please go ahead and be more direct so that I don't have to guess at your meaning :dance:

Ahnalira

Mon Nov 17 2008, 9:27pm

6.- If being and adult means sitting in a couch to judge and critizice and bitch about -condescendently, about what I think others are, believe or think, well.. HOW CHILDISH. That's when I choose to yawn and find other stuff to do, that is my "adult" thing to do.
I would always rather be happy than right. I'm aiming towards being a happy adult who can enjoy the diverse opinions around me and learn from them :joylick:

cigi

Tue Nov 18 2008, 12:11am

I'm gonna go out on a limb here & say that it's because it might upset the delicate constitution of those closer to the Hicks' camp. *sniff*
I get the impression from this one and the comment about a den mother that you are referring to me? rofl Correct me if I'm mistaken, please.

If I'm reading your veiled comments accurately, then you are saying that I hold quite a bit of power over this forum.. that people are 'afraid' to be themselves around me?

Please go ahead and be more direct so that I don't have to guess at your meaning :dance:

Ahnalira - you are SO adorable. Of course I would never leave a "veiled" comment out there. As a matter of fact, I thought I was pretty overt. (Note to self: be more obvious.)

As for your "Power" over the forum: ummm....well...All I can say is, Jody expresses the same authority...Have fun with that.

Crane

Tue Nov 18 2008, 3:41am

11:11, I agree with you 100%. You got it 100% right. So did RNRG-Alex, and in some places some of the others.

But the point I mentioned initially is that, if you are going to invoke Jesus (or anyone else), you ought to be able to be clear and ACCURATE in a discussion. By "fuzzy," I did not mean soft. I meant unclear. By bunny, I meant childish, not child-like.

Sierra, I love you but you're so busy being lovable, you wave a flag without much discretion about what it means.

Cigi, I just love you, period.

Adal, you imagine–and others follow–that because your presentation is sweet that you may be less "nasty." That's a cop out. You're a wolf preaching for ignorance behind sheeps' clothing. You say something really irresponsible or inaccurate, then you cover it in a cascade of brightly colored letters that are impossible to follow without pausing for nap. By the time you're done, the answers are lost.

Ahnalira, you make smart, reasoned comments mostly. I read your post and wanted to reply on Sunday but there were too many others. I'll note that there were some of your comments from the Andes that I wondered if you'd actually been there or just used guide notes and photoshop. The Incas had no military? Come on. It took a two minute Google search to explode that. My point is, like with Pat B, I kept my mouth shut about an obvious misstatement because I didn't want to bring on the avalanche of criticism that objecting to Adal's unthinking blather does.

Beth, you're great. Keep the edge.

Alex, I disagree with some of what you wrote, but it's nice to see some brains in action. I'll read your posts for inspiration any time.

Couple quick notes:

I never asked anyone to prove anything, scientifically or otherwise. That's a red herring used to discredit what I wrote. If you're too lazy or ego centric to look for facts and knowledge that may or may not confirm your precious core beliefs, your ignorance is your business and very common.

My approach, which is sometimes sarcastic with full conscious intent, is no less valid than or somehow harsh than foolishness and inaccuracy dressed up as nice.

Adal may be right that we don't need more adults, but in the meantime, those of us who are will go on doing the difficult things you refuse to do while you play with yourself in the corner.

ghanima

Tue Nov 18 2008, 4:53am

I'll jump in, maybe not totally 'a propos', to thank Crane for addressing this difficult subject (I mean Jesus, of this forum I don't know) that has bothered me too, and longly. Thing is, there's a sort of contiguity between the tradition of law of attraction/manifestation and the christian tradition that transpire also in this forum, I'm pretty sure also Esther Hicks has not personally experimented with other spiritual traditions than the christian one, or at least this is how it sounds. And this feels quite unpleasant for those (me for example) who have instead have come another way.

Deva

Tue Nov 18 2008, 7:03am

Some Abe Quotes on Jesus!

Guest: So, I'm kind of confused. Who is God? Who is Jesus? What's heaven and hell?

Abe: God is Source energy and the culmination of all that you are. God is expanding here today in this room.

God expands each time you live something not wanted and prefer something more. Even if you are the one-celled amoeba in the ocean - God expands in that too.

Jesus is a physical human, like you, who came forth into this environment, like you, to understand who he is and how he fits into all of this. And he banged around like you for a long time also, and then removed himself from the chaos of all that and went away and was taught by others to meditate and get inside himself. He closed that vibrational gap and connected with Source in the way that Esther is doing here and in a way that every one of you can too.

And, he said that to all of you: 'The kingdom of heaven is within you", it is not that which is outside of you. When he says Turn the other cheek, he's talking about turning your canoe into the flow. He's talking about not pushing against. In other words, he is not different from that which you are.

Heaven is the illusion that physical man has about what it will be like when he no longer has resistance. Heaven is an illusion in the sense that it is not a place, but it is certainly a state of being. And heaven exists right here on earth or exists here, where we are.

Heaven is the state of non-resistance, you see. And hell is the fiction of man's disconnected mind. There is no such thing as hell.

(applause)

And you know it, think about it. You knew that every time somebody tried to teach you about that you got your knot in your stomach and what was that know telling you? That knot was telling you that you were activating a vibration about a subject and your Source was not going there.

In other words,Source says there's no such thing, there's no such thing, there's no such thing. And, as you are trying to teach yourself that there is, you create a crevace between you and You. And when we said that just now it felt to us as if you said, "Hell Yes."

4/29/06 Asheville, NC

~~~
Guest: I've heard you say that you have many great people whose names we might
recognize who were at one time in physical form here ... I'm very wanting to
know if one of the teachers in the Abraham family was indeed Jesus.

Abe: YES. And Buddha. And Ghandi. And on and on and on and on it goes. It is
the Christ Consciousness. It is also the Buddha Consciousness. It is also the
Mohammed Consciousness. And the reason that the word 'Abraham' was the best
label that Esther could find, is because it best represented ALL of that, you
see.

But, don't make a big deal of that or you'll get Esther nailed up
again.

In other words, Esther is not that that you are not. In other words, we really
want you to get it. This is the time of Awakening. This is that time that so
many have talked about, when you will come into alignment with Who You Really
Are, if you WANT to, and BE that expanded version of Life.

Boca Raton, FL, 11-3-07

~~

"Jesus is said to have been a powerful healer.

And the reason that he was is because when he looked at you, no
matter what your current temporary state of physical condition, he
did not allow himself to behold it, instead--he saw you as he knows
you to be.

And because he saw you in your wellness, and he saw you that way so
powerfully, your illness could not abide in his vibration.

There just wasn't a place for it there.

His signal from his 500 watt tower was so powerful, that your
signals were overridden for a while.

And then he said, `Go forth and tell no one.' Because he knew that
if you went home and talked about it, that they'd talk you right
back into the resistance that was disallowing the wellness to begin
with, you see."

Ashville, NC April 24, 2004

~~

"There are no permanent, long-standing solutions to problems.
There is only the constant reaching for vibrational balance.

"Let's say that you went to the guru of all gurus who zapped
you with his magic wand and brought to a place of absolute,
in-this-moment perfection, or let's say you stood before
Jesus or Buddha or one of these masters who was connected
to source energy, who just blitzed your energy field and
brought you to a place of pure, positive connection and in
that moment you were well, and if any doctor examined you
they would conclude this is a body in perfect wellness --
we would say to you it is only there in your moment of
allowing the energy to flow, and if you go home and talk
about what happened before or remember how you were before,
your energy shifts immediately and you are less well than
you were.

"Your wellness or illness, your allowing or resistance is
something that's happening in the moment."

-- Abraham - Philadelphia, PA, 10/17/00
~~

Non physical energy is always non physical and non physical energy
is always focussed within the physical. Its not dead or alive,
physical or non physical the physical is an extension of the non
physical. We are present in the rocks, we are present in the trees,
we are present in the oxygen, we are present in the cells. In other
words we are consciousness present within all consciousness and you
by your focus discern what part of that consciousness you are wanting
to attract in any moment you see and you give it all kinds of
different labels in order to satisfy your current beliefs. Call us
what you want.

Guest:
Have you not also been Jesus?
Abe:
Certainly. As have you…….

Abraham Hicks G 6. 11.99

~~

Which feels better, to praise or to criticize? "Oh, but you don't
understand, there's nothing to praise and there's lots to criticize." That's
not our question. Which feels better? Which feels better? "But Abraham, you
don't understand. You didn't see what happened." No, we didn't. We're not
vibrating there with you. But our question to you is, which feels better,
which feels better? "But, but, but, but Abraham, you need to be here where
we are so that you understand what we're trying to tell you." Which feels
better? -- is the only thing that your Guidance System is asking you.

So which feels better, to pronounce to the world or to myself, I'm not free?
Or to pronounce to the world, I can make more decisions? Nobody can get
inside your head and make you think. Sometimes it feels like it, because
they're clamoring in your face so loud with whatever they're saying. But you
have the ability, if it is your desire, to feel good. You have the ability
to withdraw from whatever thought is bothering you, get off to yourself, and
reclaim your connection to Source Energy. And that is the freedom that you
are looking for. You have the ability to look here where there is not
resistance.

Jesus said, to turn the other cheek, and that's exactly what he was talking
about. Resist not evil. Turn the other cheek -- and achieve vibrational
harmony with that which feels better. All of you have access to Source
Energy! It is always within you, always radiating through you. Sometimes you
are providing a shadow that doesn't let it shine, more than others, and
sometimes you are letting it shine fully. But the more you are letting the
fullness of who you are radiate through you, the better you feel about
everything -- and the more you are contributing to the whole of things.
However, in any case, you cannot get it wrong!

Silver Springs, MD--4/11/99

~~

Deva

Tue Nov 18 2008, 7:13am

Personally, I believe, from real life experience!

I cannot so much speak for who he was as i can from what Jesus has come to be to me now & that is a great teacher & friend. I am delighted that he is a part of my life and i love him very deeply!

The Jesus teachings I enjoy most are those of Jeshua through Pamela Kribbe. This is what Jeshua had to say about 'who he is/was':

Jeshua, who are you?

" I am the one who has been among you and who you have come to know as Jesus.
I am not the Jesus of your church tradition or the Jesus of your religious writings.
I am Jeshua-ben-Joseph; I have lived as a man of flesh and blood.
I did reach Christ consciousness before you, but I was supported in this by powers which are beyond your imagination at present. My coming was a cosmic event - I made myself available for this.

It wasn’t easy. I did not succeed in my endeavours to pass on to people the immensity of God’s love. There was much misunderstanding. I came too early, but someone had to come. My coming was like throwing a stone in a large fishpond. All fish flee and the stone sinks into the deep. There are ripples noticeable long after though. One might say that the kind of consciousness I wished to convey, did its work underground after that. At the surface of the pool there were constant ruffles; well-meant but misguided interpretations rose to meet and fight each other in my name. The ones who were touched by my energy, moved by the impulse of Christ energy, could not really integrate it with their psychological and physical reality.

It has taken a long time before Christ consciousness could set foot on earth. But now the time has come. And I have returned and speak through many, through all and to everyone who wants to hear me and who has come to understand me from the quietness of their hearts. I do not preach and I do not judge. My sincerest hope is to speak to you of the vast and unfailing presence of Love, accessible to you at any time.

I am part of a much larger consciousness, a greater entity, but I, Jeshua, am the incarnated part of that entity (or field of consciousness). I do not like the name Jesus much, for it has become so caught up with a distorted version of what I stand for. ‘Jesus’ is owned by the church traditions and authorities. He has been molded to fit the interests of the church patriarchs for centuries, so much so that the prevailing image of Jesus is now so far removed from what I represent, that it would truly please me if you could just let it go and release me from that heritage.

I am Jeshua, man of flesh and blood.
I am your friend and brother.
I am familiar with being human in every way.
I am teacher and friend.
Do not fear me. Embrace me like you’d embrace one of your kin.
We are family.

Jeshua, Jesus and Christ

The Christ energy that I came to offer you stems from a collective energy that has gone beyond the world of duality. This means that it recognizes the opposites of good and bad, light and dark, giving and taking, as the aspects of one and the same energy. Living from the reality of Christ consciousness means that there is no struggle with anything. There is a complete acceptance of reality. This absence of struggle or resistance is its main characteristic. Since Christ (or the Christ energy) recognizes the extremes of all thoughts, feelings and actions as the manifestation of the one divine energy, there can be no duality, no judgment in the way ‘he’ (the christed energy) experiences reality.

Let’s give an example here. When the Christ in you watches an armed conflict between people, her heart weeps for the fate of the beaten one, but she does not judge. She feels the pain and humiliation with each blow, and her heart is filled with compassion, but she does not judge. She watches the offender, the one with the gun, who has power, who inflicts pain, and she feels……..the hatred and bitterness inside of him, and her heart grieves, but she does not judge. The heart of Christ embraces the whole spectacle with deeply felt compassion, but without judgment, for she recognizes all aspects as experiences she has gone through herself. She herself has lived out all of these roles, of offender and victim, of master and slave, and she has come to the understanding that she is neither of them, but that which underlies both.

The Christ energy has passed through all the energies of duality. It identified itself now with the dark, then with the light, but through it all, something remained the same. And when she realized this “sameness” underlying all her experiences, her consciousness obtained a new kind of unity: it was “christed”. The christed energy was the energy I came to offer you.

Who I was is quite difficult to explain. I will try so by distinguishing between three ‘identities’: Jeshua, Jesus, and Christ.

I, the one who is now speaking, am Jeshua. I was the human being who carried the Christ energy in my incarnation on Earth. This energy may also be called Christ.

Jesus - in my terminology - is the name for the Godlike man who was the result of the infusion of Christ energy into the physical and psychological reality of Jeshua.

This Christ energy was poured into Jeshua from spheres of Light which are - from your standpoint - located in your future. Jesus was the man who performed miracles and put forward prophesies. Jesus was an emissary from the spheres of light, incarnated in me. In fact, he was my future self. Jesus was, from my perspective as the man Jeshua living on earth, my future self, who had become one with the Christ energy. Because the Christ in him was clearly present and visible to many people around him, he appeared to them as divine.

I, Jeshua, was a man of flesh and blood. The unique and to some extent artificial aspect of the “Jesus-construction” was that I received his/my Christed self from the future. I did not become christed on the basis of my past and the experiences therein. I did not achieve enlightenment in a natural way, but by means of an intervention from outside so to speak, by an infusion of Christ energy from the future. I had agreed to play this role before I began this lifetime. I agreed to be ‘overshadowed’ by the Jesus presence, as an act of service, and also because of a deeply felt longing to get to know the reality of my deepest potentials.

Jesus, my future self from the spheres of light, had become one with the Christ energy. Yet he did not represent the entire energy of Christ here on earth, for this energy encompasses more than Jesus. He is one part or cell of it.

Christ or the Christ energy (it is more like an energy field than a personal entity) is a collective energy which has many aspects or “cells”, which are cooperating in such a way that they function as one “organism”. All cells make a unique contribution to the whole and experience themselves as individuals while being part of the whole as well. One might call these several aspects of the Christ energy angels or arch-angels. It is the hallmark of angels that they have a sense of individuality as well as a high-degree of selflessness, which allows them to feel one with collective energies and be joyfully in their service. The notion of (arch) angels is elucidated in the last chapter of the Lightworker series ('Your Light Self').

Jesus’ mission on earth

Jesus was an energy from the future who came to earth to bring illumination and knowledge to humanity. He came from another world or even dimension, and he brought with him the elevated energy of this reality. His awareness of his own Greater Self remained intact while he incarnated on earth. Because of his presence in me, Jeshua, I could easily realize the flexibility of material laws and “perform miracles”.

The reason why the Jesus/Jeshua personality came to earth was to create an opening or doorway to a different state of consciousness. I wanted to set an example of the possibilities that are available to each human being.

In the spheres of light where Jesus came from, it was felt that the earth was going into a direction which would end up in great darkness and self-alienation for the souls involved in the earth experiment. It was decided that a powerful impetus for change was going to be given which would clearly show human beings the choices available to them. By sending the energy personality of Jesus, we wanted to hold up a mirror to human beings and remind them of their own divine origin and the dormant potentials they carried within. The potentials for peace, freedom and mastership over yourself.

Every human being is the master of his own reality. You are creating your own reality all the time. You are able to let go of a miserable or unsatisfying reality and allow Light to enter and transform your creation. Man is his own master, but he tends to give his power away to outside authorities who claim to know the truth and to want the best for you. This happens in politics, medicine, education, and etcetera. Also, your “entertainment industry” is full of false images about happiness, success and beauty, which serve no one except the ones who construct them. Have you ever thought about how much money is spent just creating images? In the media, the newspapers, the movies, on radio and television, images are spread all the time. Where do these images come from? Why are they there? Who designs them?

Images are a means of exerting power over people. Images can make people subservient and disconnected from their true needs, without the use of physical force or violence. Images can make people voluntarily give away their own power and self-worth. They delude you in such a way that you need not be violently forced into anything; you will accept the values portrayed by the image as your own and act accordingly. This is what we would call invisible mind-control and it is rampant among your ‘free’ western societies.

The function of Light is primarily to bring clarity, awareness and transparency to the invisible structures of thought and feeling that shape your life. Light is the opposite of mind-control. Where Light enters a reality, it breaks the bonds of mere power and authority and it breaks down the hierarchies based on it. It holds misuse of power up to the light and it frees people of delusions and illusions that take away their power for self-determination.

Jesus was a threat to the ruling order at the time he lived. By what he told people and sheerly by what he radiated, he caused structures of power to be seen for what they truly were. This was unbearable and unacceptable for the existing hierarchy.

The role of Lightworker, which Jesus took upon him, was heavy; especially for me, Jeshua, the human being who agreed to carry this intense, bright energy in my lifetime. I, Jeshua, was almost overshadowed by the force of Jesus’ presence, the presence of my future self! Although it filled me with great insights, love and inspiration, it was quite a challenge physically to carry or “hold” his energy. I could not really integrate his energy into my physical being - the cells in my body were ‘not ready’ for it yet - so on a physical level my body got exhausted from carrying these intense energies of Light.
Apart from the physical aspect, there was also a psychological burden to carrying the Christ energy. I found it very hard to watch the nature of the Christ energy being misunderstood frequently, even by my closest friends or ‘disciples’. As the human being that I was, I sometimes became desperate and doubted the value of the journey I undertook. I felt that the world was not ready for the Christed energy. I felt that its essence was not recognised. Jesus was truly a pioneer in his time.

Results of Jesus’ coming to earth

By the coming of Jesus to earth, a seed was planted. It was the seed of the Christ energy. People were moved by what I said and did, and unconsciously, at the soul-level, they did recognize the Christ energy. Deep within their souls, a memory was stirred. Something was touched and set in motion.

At the surface, on the level of what can be seen and felt in the physical world, my coming created much commotion. In virtue of the law of duality, the powerful infusion of Light creates a powerful reaction from the Dark. This is just a matter of logic. Light is confronting. It wants to break structures of power and set the imprisoned energies free. Darkness is the energy that wants to suppress and control. So these two energies have opposing interests. Where one gains in power, the other will strike back to defend itself and regain balance. Thus, my coming to earth also initiated much struggle and violence, as a counter reaction to the Light I came to spread.

The persecution of my followers, the early Christians, is one example of this violent counter reaction. But the Christians themselves, the founders of the Church, did not shun violence either in their pursuit to spread my teachings. Think of the crusades and the Inquisition. In the name of Christ, the most barbaric deeds of darkness have been performed, by Christians as well as non-Christians.

The masters of Light, who decided to send me as an emissary to earth, were aware of the fact that the intense and unprecedented energy of Jesus might invoke strong reactions of darkness. Jesus penetrated the reality of earth like a comet. It was a kind of emergency measure from the spheres of light, from energies which were deeply concerned with earth and its inhabitants. It was an ultimate attempt to divert the direction in which the earth was heading, a way of interrupting cycles of ignorance and destruction which kept on repeating themselves.

The results were ambiguous. On the one hand, the Light of Jesus invoked much Darkness (by way of counter reaction). On the other hand, the seed of the Christ consciousness was planted in the hearts of a number of people. An important reason for my coming was to awaken the lightworker souls on earth. (See the other channelled material for an explanation of the notion of lightworker). They would be most sensitive and receptive of my energy, although many had become lost in the density and darkness of the earth plane as well. Lightworkers are in fact emissaries of Light with the same mission as Jesus. The difference is that in their incarnation in a physical body, they are less connected to their wider divine Self than I was. They are more subject to the karmic burdens and illusions of the earth plane. They are more bound to the past. With the incarnation of Jesus, something special was occurring. Jesus did not carry any karmic burdens from the past and he could therefore more easily keep in touch with his divinity. He was here in a somewhat artificial way, a presence from the future, being here and there at the same time.

The consciousness of the beings of Light which jointly decided to ‘insert’ the energy of Jesus into earth reality at the time was not perfect and all-knowing. Every conscious being is in the process of developing and understanding itself all the time. Among humans, there is a persistent belief that everything is predestined by some divine plan; behind this belief is the notion of a dominant, omniscient God. This notion is false. There is no predestination by an outside force. There are only probabilities which are the result from inner choices you yourself make. My coming to earth was based on a decision made by a collective energy of light, which Jesus was a part of. It was a choice that involved risks and an unpredictable outcome.

The collective energy of light I am speaking of is an angelic realm that is deeply connected to humanity and earth because it helped to create man and earth. Actually, you are part of them and not separate from them at all, but we are now speaking multidimensionally, i.e. on a level of consciousness that is outside of your linear framework of time. In another dimension or framework of time, you are these angels that make up the spheres of light, from which Jesus descended to earth. (See the last chapter of the Lightworker series ('Your Light Self') for an in-depth explanation of multidimensionality and your angelic nature).You – lightworkers - are much more interconnected with ‘the Jesus event’, this infusion of Christ energy on earth, than you suppose. It was to some extent a collective endeavour, to which you all contributed, and from which I, Jeshua, was the visible, physical representative.

My message was that the Christ energy is present in all human beings as a seed. When you look up to me as some kind of authority, you have misunderstood my message.

I wished and still wish to invite you to believe in yourself, to find the truth within your own heart, and not to believe in any authority outside of you.

Ironically, the official Christian religion has placed me outside of your reality as an authority to worship and obey. This is quite the opposite of what I intended. I intended to show you that you can be a living Christ yourself.

I now ask you to recognize the Christ within, and to return to me my humanness.

I am Jeshua, man of flesh and blood, and truly a friend and brother to you all.

© Pamela Kribbe
http://www.jeshua.net

ghanima

Tue Nov 18 2008, 7:25am

(who was that said it was referred to as nothing but an archetype, a la Jung? not really true, isn't it? there is great desire to believe in a Jesus made of flesh and bones all over the abers world)

Ahnalira

Tue Nov 18 2008, 7:34am

I'll note that there were some of your comments from the Andes that I wondered if you'd actually been there or just used guide notes and photoshop.
Here you go, Crane: http://www.ourlaughingplace.com/asp/art ... icleID=380 (http://www.ourlaughingplace.com/asp/article.aspx?request=DisplayArticle&cat=AdventuresByDisney&articleID=380)

We had a 'local expert' traveling with our group, and most of my education came from him. Where he got his 'facts, I don't know... but probably not Google since they don't have much technology in the Sacred Valley. I chose to believe him because it suits my story... as you'll note, there is a point in review where I comment that no one knows what really happened because none of us were there (not even the experts from Google :joylick: ); we've all just got a 'story' we choose to believe, and - perhaps - I could have been more accurate in describing his story to say: The Incans had no need to invest in any kind of conquest, because local tribes wanted to join the prosperous community :wink2:

If you choose to believe that I have the inclination to 'pretend' to travel, who I am to try and change your mind? rofl

Jen415

Tue Nov 18 2008, 7:35am

Deva

Tue Nov 18 2008, 7:43am

HAHA, I've been avoiding responding to this thread while following it intensely as Christ Consciousness is something that has been a huge illuminating light in my life. Helping my tie together all the aspects of my personality I previously condemned and now am embracing and loving. I just find such purity and wonderful assistance in the teachings of Jeshua through Pamela Kribbe. I remember the first time I heard about Jesus in church my heart started singing. I have always known a deep connection with him and am happy to have him as a personal teachers & guide right now.

I've been very emotional about cranes original post & the way he 'thrashed' the whole Jesus idea but I have found such a pleasure in allowing!

This is the gift this thread gives to me. ALLOWING!!!!

So thank you Dave for being so opinionated & outspoken & powerful & delicious!

I am honestly amazed that you got into Abraham in the first place seeing as you dont believe in anything you can't scientifically prove like orbs & fairies & talking to whales or ufo's or jesus! For me, it is impossible to discuss Jesus from the perspective of 'scientific fact' instead of what one feels in their heart. We all know that these 'facts' can be cooked and manipulated to serve the one who is producing them. And that LOA will support anyone who sets out to prove anything anyway. You can create your own 'factual' reality, even if your 'facts' are not true for me unless I want them to be (or push against them). It cannot be scientifically proven that Esther is in fact channeling Abraham but I FEEL it is true and that is the inside knowing that I base my life upon.

I agree with Jen, you really have to pick & choose and create from the buffet of life what flavor of spirituality makes you happy!

I do not find it satisfying to argue points against beliefs because it is the very BELIEF that makes the experience TRUE FOR YOU or not. And of course, the fact that we all believe different things is a testament to the beauty of living on planet earth and us having free will to create what ever we like! There are as many realities as there are people on the earth.

:biggrin: :biggrin:
AHHHHHHHHH!

Ahnalira

Tue Nov 18 2008, 7:48am

(who was that said it was referred to as nothing but an archetype, a la Jung? not really true, isn't it? there is great desire to believe in a Jesus made of flesh and bones all over the abers world)
Yay! Someone responded to my post about Jesus :clap:

Yeah... Jung would say belief is the source of perception and that - when enough people belief the same perception - it takes on 'reality' and becomes a "Truth". Concretely and literally.

What I would say, personally, is that I don't know. I can neither prove nor disprove the fact of Jesus. I do know that there are many people who derive a deep satisfaction from the relationship they have.

Me, I go to Nature and indigenous cultures to immerse myself in a feeling of connectedness with All I Am. No one can disprove my experience because experience is like that - based on my personal perceptions and beliefs. There are folks who make disparaging comments about my 'faith'... but they'll never convince me of anything by judging me. The people who have the most influence over my thinking are the people who live their lives more aligned with the values I admire than I do.

ghanima

Tue Nov 18 2008, 8:10am

Crane

Tue Nov 18 2008, 8:19am

Okay, this is a legitimate, op-topic question:

WHY is it necessary to have proof (concrete evidence) that something you believe is true? Why can't it be enough that it makes me FEEL GOOD to believe it???

"FAITH is the essence of things hoped for--the substance of things not seen."

Look CRANE! I participated!!!! :clap:

:heart: Jen :heart:

Jen, nobody, not me anyway, asked for proof about anything. I did ask Adal, especially, to explain some comments he made. That's not asking for proof. That's asking for clarification for something that seemed off to me. It still does, to a large extent because he never answered the question. He just went on and on.

"Why can't it be enough that it makes me FEEL GOOD to believe it???"

Because any old thing you want can be the thing that makes you feel good. I've tried to show why getting as many known facts together as possible is important by asking posters to think through empty positions like this. What if it feels good to torture animals? It does for some people. What if it feels good to rape children? There are people thrilled to do that.

Without thinking through a position, it's just empty, feel good rhetoric. There can be no escaping the knowledge that it can also be very dangerous. We do not live in a vacuum, and not everyone has the kindness and warmth in their hearts that you have.

Crane

Tue Nov 18 2008, 8:25am

Sierra, I love you but you're so busy being lovable, you wave a flag without much discretion about what it means.

[color=#0000BF][size=150]Ah, the World According to Crane.... I fly the flag of JOY, baby. I know, I know, those of us expressing Joy and Happiness are fuzzy and dillusional, cause obviously we are not facing reality...according to the World According to Crane.

See if you can discern the meaning of this flag, then.

Corrrect, Sierra. You are not facing reality. Your are stuck in a position you can't get out of without changing. You won't change because you're so invested in your ego.

One final note, without all the fuzzy thinking and inaccuracies to support me, I've been intensely happy, consistently for years. I live my dream life, which includes expanding knowledge and consciousness, even when it means I realize a need to change. In fact, I love change. Change gets my motor going. Always looking for good reason.

Ahnalira

Tue Nov 18 2008, 8:31am

Without thinking through a position, it's just empty... ... rhetoric.
Crane, I agree with you. I removed 'feel good' from the statement because any position held without a base of understanding is empty rhetoric, imo.

It's also true, though, that people 'think' differently. I applaud for you for your intent to ask the provocative questions that inspire us to explore the foundations of our beliefs. However, I think it's also valuable to allow others to have their own unique process of exploration.

So, my provocative question to you is: Is it possible ask the question without implying in the rhetoric of the question that there is a right or wrong answer? :wink2:

Crane

Tue Nov 18 2008, 8:34am

WHY is it necessary to have proof (concrete evidence) that something you believe is true? Why can't it be enough that it makes me FEEL GOOD to believe it???

I give my answer although the question is not addressed to me.
If you find out that something you believed in never existed, and yet continue to believe in it, that must mean you're in desperate need of it. But you don't need anything outside of you, sweetheart. You can feel good even without Jesus, as you are already all that Jesus needed to be for you.

This and other threads related to Crane seems IMO to orbitate around an other tricky concept in the aber field, that is the dubious need to transit through denial of reality for the sake of connection.

ps wanted to add: when instead expanding your idea of reality would do the job much better
Good post, ghanima.

Edit: After reading Ahna's question: for some things, there are clearly accurate responses and inaccurate responses when dealing with known fact. I don't think we're ready to deny fact yet, although some people on these threads dodge them like poison.

Shari, I loved what you added from Eshterham and was delighted to see someone who disagreed posting something other than delusional blather.

Unfortunately then, you went on to yet another channeler. There must be a department at Macy's for them by now. It's become apparent to me that people lacking in confidence keep digging up new resources to reinforce their shaky beliefs. If you really had a lock into your inner self, you wouldn't spend half your life searching for an quoting them–or spacemen, in your case.

Finally, you leapt on the claim that I ever said anything about proof. It's a way of changing the subject, a stunt. There many unproven things in the world, including the nature of gravity, that many except. But what I do know and what pioneering scientists have discovered is important, and if you could spare some time away from the imaginary and the endless line of supposed channelers., you could discover more about it.

We are, as you may remember, physical. That means there are physical laws governing the arena in which we exist. Wouldn't you like to find out about them rather than rely on the claims of priests? and holy rollers?

Jen415

Tue Nov 18 2008, 8:39am

As I said in another thread....I get conflicted reading here sometimes. It's a struggle to watch how some people "feel good" at the expense of others.

And I have always been conflicted about the teaching that everyone (including babies and children) attract EVERYTHING, good and bad, into their existence. Being a creature who has free will, I can choose to not have that particular ingredient in my pie, right? I mean, surely belief systems (anyone's!) are not all or nothing (if you believe part of it you have to believe all of it).

I have no control over what feels good to anyone else. I can only go by what feels good to me. And I can't see my feeling good as an empty position that needs justification. Dangerous? Maybe.....

One more thing....

I really and truly love you, Dave. Thank you for making me think today.

:heart: Jen :heart:

Ahnalira

Tue Nov 18 2008, 9:05am

Deva

Tue Nov 18 2008, 9:07am

Shari, I loved what you added from Eshterham and was delighted to see someone who disagreed posting something other than delusional blather.

Unfortunately then, you went on to yet another channeler. There must be a department at Macy's for them by now. It's become apparent to me that people lacking in confidence keep digging up new resources to reinforce their shaky beliefs. If you really had a lock into your inner self, you wouldn't spend half your life searching for an quoting them–or spacemen, in your case.

Hi baby! On the contrary, I see these channeled entities as aspects of myself. Just because it does not come through me doesn't mean it isn't me speaking through another voice. I see Abraham as a part of me also and since this is how I became enlightened I have great respect for channeled material. I do not believe that Esther is the only voice of Source energy and I find great value and delight in listening to other channeled entities. What can I say, it floats my boat :D

There many unproven things in the world, including the nature of gravity, that many except. But what I do know and what pioneering scientists have discovered is important, and if you could spare some time away from the imaginary and the endless line of supposed channelers., you could discover more about it.

We are, as you may remember, physical. That means there are physical laws governing the arena in which we exist. Wouldn't you like to find out about them rather than rely on the claims of priests? and holy rollers?

I respect your love & passion for the 'physical laws/facts' . I believe that these physical laws that you speak of are a direct result of what we believe. What you call 'facts' I see as the outcome of the creative energy that has been flowed by the one(s) who's belief created them. I thinks scientific facts are easily changeable depending on what we want. We are GOD - this is what I learned from Abraham. Channeled messages provide to me another perspective, more information to consider and enhance my buffet with. I don't have any interest in reading scientific facts from 2000 years ago, after my experience with Abraham I realized I am much more interested in hearing what Jesus has to say right now! I can read the channeled material and decided whether what is flowed forth is of value to me. If it is - it can (and has) help to me create such magic and peace and joy in my life. I do not follow all channelers but I embrace the phenomenon that is channeling with open arms. I do not believe I have to wait for anyone else to verify the information if it sets my heart alight. I still delight in what I am learning from teachers such as Jeshua and sound channelers such as Tom Kenyon.

I shared that Jeshua quote because I know someone will find value it in. You are so uber skeptical i didn't think it would be you but I love it when i get so passionate about something I have to share things from my perspective.

Thanks again Dave, I think that every time I interact with you I get more sure & more confident in the beauty & delight in what I believe in. And it is that feeling, than intangible, unprovable FEELING that is the basis of how I navigate my life :D

Ahnalira

Tue Nov 18 2008, 9:23am

Hi baby! On the contrary, I see these channeled entities as aspects of myself. Just because it does not come through me doesn't mean it isn't me speaking through another voice. I see Abraham as a part of me also and since this is how I became enlightened I have great respect for channeled material. I do not believe that Esther is the only voice of Source energy and I find great value and delight in listening to other channeled entities. What can I say, it floats my boat

Woman, your post set me soaring! :joylick: I loved all of it, but the first line of this paragraph took me straight 'there' The depth of insight lifts me to new levels of expansion :clap:

MUCH appreciation! :hug:

Crane

Tue Nov 18 2008, 10:08am

Edit: After reading Ahna's question: for some things, there are clearly accurate responses and inaccurate responses when dealing with known fact. I don't think we're ready to deny fact yet, although some people on these threads dodge them like poison.
Again, I agree with you. Fact is fact. What is the criteria for fact? When I test my blood sugar, for example, the reading I get is a fact. When I drive my car, the odometer shows how many miles I travel. It is a fact because the variables are consistent, and the outcome is verifiable. Agreed?

In conversations about philosophy and belief, the variables are more subjective, and everyone has personal measure for verifying outcomes. Unless everyone shares an agreement about what the baseline facts are, facts and opinions are less easily distinguished.

I know it would be helpful for me when ever someone states a fact, if they clarify what makes it verifiable so that I can better understand the difference between perspective and fact in a post.

Agreed, Ahnalira, and Shari notes that she doesn't care about facts, which is another point of view, baffling but valid.

It would be impossible to talk about anything or even to build a computer without established physical reality to work from. To deny that is to deny reality itself. Fair enough, but if so, on what to you base your beliefs, since you have nothing left but belief about beliefs, an ultimate absurdity.

In my opinion, we must have concrete things to go on and to build from.

Crane

Tue Nov 18 2008, 10:18am

As with all the amazing Abraham quotes, you can read these in any way that pleases you. Personally, I prefer to use my brain for something more elevated than a hat rack and to think about it, mull in over in context of other Abe teachings and see what chimes. Easy enough to pull things out of context to make a point, but unfortunately for you and Adal, it is no substitute for putting your brain in gear.

Dorothee

Tue Nov 18 2008, 11:07am

Hi Sierra,

Thanks so much for those great Abe Quotes, they were exactly what I was looking for!

I think it is wonderful that there are so many connected, peaceful, generous people here in this community and I love to see how this thread provides each and every one of us with ample opportunity to live the talk and to put what Abe and other teachers tell us about unconditional love (= loving someone, even though he/she is not lovable in this moment) into our own reality. :grouphug:

I admire the patience and the love with which many answer to one thought-provoking post after another, you're really a bunch of great teachers :applause: :applause: :applause: !

So, as Abraham says, contrast is so valuable because it brings forth more clarity about what we want and what we would prefer, so I can even appreciate this whole thread, even though I still have my issues with this kind of contrast (and I recognize that they are MY OWN issues, so no need to point this out to me 8-) ).

:heart: Dorothee

Deva

Tue Nov 18 2008, 11:12am

:lol: I gotta say, I feel great!!

I love you Dave & everyone else who participated in this thread. What a breath of fresh air!

:dance2:

:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

The diversity is indeed a beautiful thing :D

Ahnalira

Tue Nov 18 2008, 11:20am

It would be impossible to talk about anything or even to build a computer without established physical reality to work from. To deny that is to deny reality itself. Fair enough, but if so, on what to you base your beliefs, since you have nothing left but belief about beliefs, an ultimate absurdity.

In my opinion, we must have concrete things to go on and to build from.
To me, this is a fascinating topic. Way back in another Life (the early 80's :joylick: ), I wrote my thesis on the power of the mind to effect reality. I read through study after study on experiments formed to define how perception and belief influence reality and experience. My all time favorite was the physics experiment that proved that light showed up as either a particle or a wave, depending upon the pre-disposition of the observer.

The parable of the blind men describing an elephant - and each one of them describing a different creature based on what they touched personally - is another way of saying the same thing.

So, my mind extrapolates - Where is base? Where is the 'place' of connection where, indeed, we are One in a shared reality? For that, I turn to the intangible sciences of Spirituality and Psychology. Here I find connection in Oneness is a vibratory experience - an experience of resonance rather than perception. As soon, as we move into the attempt to describe it, we become 'separate'and 'perceptual' again.

From the intellect, we are always going to be perceptual from our unique world view. We project our beliefs onto every situation and circumstance, defining the experience accordingly. For some, the intellect is the pathway to Oneness; for others feelings, kinesthetic experience, and/or intuition. All perceptual.

The only way I've found (so far) to bypass the "absurdity" of perception is to vibrate in resonance with Oneness :meditate: The challenge for me is to sustain a consciousness of the resonance while I am playing in perception :wink2:

cigi

Tue Nov 18 2008, 12:50pm

Mariposa

Tue Nov 18 2008, 12:52pm

Deva

Tue Nov 18 2008, 1:18pm

I also take offense to an organization that uses subversive, terroristic techniques to sway the masses' loyalties. Inquisitors, torturers & crusaders forced the submission of culture after culture in the name of the Roman Catholic Church. The construction of Vatican City was largely financed by neat little practices like the sale of "Indulgences" to the submissive population. The Bible has been rewritten & edited more than any other book in history.

So, in light of all that - I guess my problem is less about Jesus & more about the controlling Goliath that was built on the sketchy foundation of his life.

Hi there Christy-love I love the point you made. This is precisely why I take such inspiration from this phenomenon of channeling. While I have always felt a connection to Jesus - even when I used to attend church regularly. He seemed like a far away figure. One who spoke in parables and said things I would never be able to understand or apply to my everyday life. I was delighted to discover via Abraham & Pamela Kribbe that Jesus is alive. I loved knowing that he still exists and I can tap into his energy right now, myself. This is where the term 'Christ Conciousness' comes in for me. To me Christ Conciousness is the energy of Jesus as it has expanded and grown and is made relevant to what I am doing today. Even though he is no longer physically here, he is still alive in the non-physical intangible reality and I believe anyone can contact him & interact with him if you wish.

It pleases me so deeply to connect to him and learn from him and I just feel blessed to have him in my life. This energy inspires me and delights me everyday and I totally LOVE it!

:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

:fireworks: :fireworks:

Crane

Tue Nov 18 2008, 1:30pm

wow... :wink2:

And Crane what about my post?? I guess the world needs both adults and children. And each one of us needs a little bit of both as well. But why did nobody comment on my post? I'll give you guys a second chance:

... what's so great about something being REAL? is something real better that something that hasn't been proved to be real? :silent: what does ''real'' mean anyway? how can something not be real? and to whom? sometimes I feel nothing is real... or anything can be real if I allow it to be... :drum:

:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

Sorry I missed that. There was a lot of stuff rattling around. Maybe you were too nice?

The important point is that, since we are physical beings in a physical world, there must be a physical reality. The conjecture, I guess, is around what that is and who is responsible for it. Personally, I think we come into a lot of preset things and only small amounts relatively are added. The pre-established reality we enter has been imagined and created by our predecessors over many centuries and we add to rather than create from scratch. Real isn't necessarily better but, given that it is, it's important to identify and involve ourselves with it.

I'm sure somebody will la di da that they create their own reality in whole, but I've never seen a believable case for that. I'd ask, but I'd probably just get an avalanche of quotes pulled out of context which means to me, in general, that the sender has no developed thoughts of their own. Personally, I quote only Warren Zevon and Tom Waits.

"Come down off the cross. We can use the wood." Tom Waits from Come on Up to The House

Crane

Tue Nov 18 2008, 1:37pm

I don't truly believe there's anything wrong with believing in Jesus or Christ Consciousness. I know, so far I have only made a smart-ass comment about the subject.

To me, there is certainly enough historical data to prove that such a man existed. HOWEVER, as the facts become skewed & tainted by the enormous governmental & religious organization that revolves around this particular figure, the Jesus story looses some luster.

This is where my doubts start to seep in: While I personally accept that there is a high likelihood that this person did indeed exist, the events of his life appear to be mostly borrowed from previous God-like figures, or just made up all together. I also take offense to an organization that uses subversive, terroristic techniques to sway the masses' loyalties. Inquisitors, torturers & crusaders forced the submission of culture after culture in the name of the Roman Catholic Church. The construction of Vatican City was largely financed by neat little practices like the sale of "Indulgences" to the submissive population. The Bible has been rewritten & edited more than any other book in history.

So, in light of all that - I guess my problem is less about Jesus & more about the controlling Goliath that was built on the sketchy foundation of his life.
That doesn't quite cover it. Although a number of people have rang in in favor of Christianity, there remain the key questions Adal did not answer:

1. What about endedness? The whole Judeo Christian store depends on endedness, which Abe says does not exist. So, you've gotta go with one or the other.
2. What about the patriarchal leaders granted the right to tell you what's right and what's wrong? I thought we were supposed to do that. Also, very non-Abe.
3. What about some surviving for eternity and others not? Not what Abe teaches.

About from the other, more gruesome attributes of Christianity over the years, these are core tenets of the faith founded in Jesus's name.

Christ consciousness, etc. are modern inventions and go far beyond anything Jesus was ever reported to have said or to have claimed. I see them as just inventive ways to drag that discredited old rag up over the top of some evolved concepts. Other than from Abraham, there is no evidence whatsoever in any book or story that Christ spent five minutes meditating or even knew what it was. Prayed, yes. Meditated, never.

Crane

Tue Nov 18 2008, 1:55pm

Real isn't necessarily better but, given that it is, it's important to identify and involve ourselves with it.

But I cannot even begin to count the number of times Abraham says "DO NOT FOCUS ON WHAT-IS!!! WHAT-IS IN NO WAY CREATES WHAT-IS GOING TO BE!"

Underneath it all is a vibrational reality.
Agreed, but I believe that is a response to being stuck and also a reasonable approach to dealing with what already is and can't be changed. I see understanding physical reality as a gateway to what is possible, as a launching pad, because in spite of all we know, we actually know very little. What we don't know leads to what we can do with the future. I find physics highly motivating and the incredible imaginations of physicists impressive.

Ahnalira

Tue Nov 18 2008, 2:44pm

"Seek First To Understand (Before Being Understood)" it was very illuminating. Basically if you don't address another persons reasoning/understanding when you try to explain your own, then there is no real point of juncture and it all goes in one ear and out the other. But if you can address the world from a perspective that takes into account the way THEY SEE IT, and WHY they see it that way, that VALIDATES what they KNOW from THEIR EXPERIENCE then you can talk in their own language so to speak. And true communication is much more likely to take place.
Spoken with a clarity that lifts me up :clap: Thank you, Alex :heart:

vineyardnancy

Tue Nov 18 2008, 5:49pm

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp53/adaldeleon/fluffybunny.jpg

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl Cracking me up Adal!! rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Crane

Tue Nov 18 2008, 6:37pm

There were many points from different posts that I would have quoted if it would have been easy to so I will segment intend to address them all in this post anyway.

Dave,

The question you seem to be asking is "what is more valuable, the group reality of this world, OR the creative power of each of us." No interest in that question whatsoever. I don't really understand what it means. Never entered my mind. Maybe it was someone else's post.Abraham is clear that it is the latter. Of course you can choose to believe whichever one, because that is your right.

Interestingly, I have read about two easily googlable scientists interested in these things. They both enter into experiments where the mind is used to change the nature of scientific law. I cannot however vouch for their scientific rigorousness. William Tiller used focused intent to change the base pH of water and the growth rate of mosquitos. Rupert Sheldrake mentioned in a book of his how scientific constants may not actually be constant or have always been constant, based on the original measurements of those constants in the mid-1800's.

The way I see it there is this World of WHAT-IS-NESS. But our job is to focus on what we want. Because that is where our creative power lay.

You questioned whether it was always good to do what feels good. I would not have expected the "it feels good to rape" argument from you. Alex, it's the obvious extension of the it if feels good to me, it's good argument. The point I'm making is that it is not a simple world as painted repeatedly here. Wants conflict and require resolution. I have never desired to rape. I cannot really go there, but I know I am good. Maybe rapists shouldn't be Abers, lol <- jokingly... Or maybe rapers have not been able to find the crack of least resistance. Maybe they have gone faaaaaarrrrrr from their state of natural well-Being. But there is a way back to Well-Being even for them, and I cannot prove it but I am quite sure there are alternate paths for a potential rapist to take that feel deliciously better than rape does to those potential rapists. But those rapists are not taking that path. Same goes for drug addicts etc... I don't really believe rape feels best to them.

That is a pretty big leap of faith concerning a popular activity undertaken for centuries and limited now by people who do what you call "pushing against" and I call refusing to have it in my pie. Hard to believe you could be right on this.

Remember it is not do what feels good, it is do what feels best. I keep reading on this thread and others about "live and let live" and "to each his own." What if what you want to have conflicts seriously with what I want to have? What then? It just isn't as simple as it's being pushed up to be, not in a world full of others.

I read "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" when I was in Florida. I liked it. The 7th habit was: "Seek First To Understand (Before Being Understood)" it was very illuminating. Basically if you don't address another persons reasoning/understanding when you try to explain your own, then there is no real point of juncture and it all goes in one ear and out the other. But if you can address the world from a perspective that takes into account the way THEY SEE IT, and WHY they see it that way, that VALIDATES what they KNOW from THEIR EXPERIENCE then you can talk in their own language so to speak. And true communication is much more likely to take place.
Covey has been around for a while and has stayed very popular. I don't get him, but I haven't felt I needed fixing. He's helped a lot of people.

And...

I am (edit: not quite) complete. :D

cigi

Wed Nov 19 2008, 7:32am

That doesn't quite cover it.

Of course my statement doesn't quite cover it. This is a subject that's been 2000 years in the making. One little ol' post can't ever encompass the vast cultural & societal implications this religion has birthed.

1. What about endedness? The whole Judeo Christian store depends on endedness, which Abe says does not exist. So, you've gotta go with one or the other.
2. What about the patriarchal leaders granted the right to tell you what's right and what's wrong? I thought we were supposed to do that. Also, very non-Abe.
3. What about some surviving for eternity and others not? Not what Abe teaches.

About from the other, more gruesome attributes of Christianity over the years, these are core tenets of the faith founded in Jesus's name.

I realize the above questions were directed at Adal, but I'd like to toss my .02 in as well.

1.Endedness imo is yet another scare tactic. It speaks to the idea of ascension based on cooperation. The Christian religion uses it as a carrot for their horsey masses.

2.The patriarchal leaders are more a product of the culture of the time & the collective unconscious than the church. The minister is an archetype - Jesus himself was one. Of course hoards of undereducated people would look to those figures for approval & guidance. It's human nature - practically engraved on our DNA.

3.Eternal life vs. Damnation was a factor of the Christian Cannon that was not introduced until later in the religion's history. Another carrot, if you will. As a matter of fact, reincarnation was originally part of the early beliefs, but was nixed because the church/government felt that it gave individuals too much freedom to believe they might have more than 1 opportunity to "get it right."

Christ consciousness, etc. are modern inventions and go far beyond anything Jesus was ever reported to have said or to have claimed. I see them as just inventive ways to drag that discredited old rag up over the top of some evolved concepts. Other than from Abraham, there is no evidence whatsoever in any book or story that Christ spent five minutes meditating or even knew what it was. Prayed, yes. Meditated, never.

I'll agree that Christ Consciousness in this context, is a modern invention. Is it valid? Possibly. Maybe not for me personally, but if you'll read Shari's posts on the subject, you'll see that for her, discovering these teachings have been positively life changing. She has identified with them on a deep level & she spoke her truth about the matter beautifully. I'll defer my opinion on this aspect of the subject to her much more educated view.

Mariposa

Wed Nov 19 2008, 11:47am

Sierra! rofl

Dance of Joy

Wed Nov 19 2008, 1:52pm

I was gonna post Yosemite Sam.

Adal, it is because we ARE looney tunes! rofl

ghanima

Wed Nov 19 2008, 4:41pm

Ignoring what-is is a good suggestion as most of us are driven out of connection by the emotions of rejection of reality, if we don't like it as it is. But it seems to me just a step 1.

Step 2 (a very juicy one) is embracing reality as it is, allowing it to be different, loving everything that exists because simply, it exists. Christine seems to have gone a long way in that direction. Also the channellings of Jeshua so dear to Shari talk of this in every page.

So I see denial of reality as a passage, but opening the heart to the deep beauty of reality no matter what as the real place to aim at. From that place you can get to any other reality more suiting your preferences almost flawlessly.

It seems to me that Crane is not saying anything so alien to the others of you, maybe it's just a problem of formulation.

ghanima

Wed Nov 19 2008, 6:00pm

ok, although much better said that is still step 1.

What is obstacle to connection is not what-is, but the emotional wall, the reaction of exclusion. Once you embrace reality and you're nothing but love (not that it's easy, in its purest form this is high level of satori), that is once the wall is away, focusing on what-is doesn't cause any problems, on the contrary reality can make one feel amazingly connected.

And, I once thought that loving reality meant I renunced to my desires, I decided to be entirely passive. Instead it is not so. It is a state of relaxation, not of passivity. As all runners know, relaxation makes you run faster, if run is what you want.